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Pierre_Lamour

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hi folks,

I am on the final setup of my first(s) HG(s) and it is the first time I use sub-bass string! So, I've planed for the lower bass a E with 800mm scale to a D with 710mm scale, 10Kg per strings and and it gave me: 0.070 to 0.047.
Result, It is too soft .....
So, I took a 0.075 string for the low E, but it doesn't fit with my tunners!

Disapointing

My questions are :
- What is the average string tension for Harp sub-bass strings?
- Do I have to re-drill my tuners to fit the 0.075 ?

Thanks for your precious help my friends

Pierre, HG making student.......





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Cédric Verglas, Luthier
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BMS

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Reply with quote  #2 

- What is the average string tension for Harp sub-bass strings?

I should say 7 to 14 Kg (14 Been like an acoustic bass guitar)

 

- Do I have to re-drill my tuners to fit the 0.075

 

Yes!

 

Cheers

Ben

Gregg

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Reply with quote  #3 

Ben - why re-drill? We are talking steel strings here, not silk with wrap?

On all my instruments, I simply strip off the outer bronze winding and snip to the length I need.  Leaving a bit extra as needed for desired tuner wrapping. The steel core goes in the tuner hole up to where the winding now ends, butting up to the tuner.  How else would I put PBs on my koa Knutsen with zither pin sub-bass tuners!


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FredCarlson

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Reply with quote  #4 
Pierre,

The gauge necessary for a string to respond properly at a specific pitch obviously depends on
a)string length
b)specific instrument's responsiveness
c)players' style and taste

Generally, a string works most efficiently when it is quite near it's breaking point. In my opinion that tension would require an instrument to be built too heavily to be optimally responsive; do you care most about the instrument itself being efficient in it's responsiveness, or the string? I say the instrument, but obviously they're connected!
My rule of thumb is to start light, and increase gauge until a sound is achieved that is acceptable by me and the player/owner. You've done good by starting too light.

I've found that using even a 34 inch scale length (865mm)I need to use an .080" string to get a reasonably strong sound at that low D note. On one instrument (Marc Dorsa's Kali) the string length was, I think, about 32" (810mm), and we ended up with (as I recall) a low D that used a .100" string. Depending on the instrument and how responsive it is, and how sturdily built it is, you might need an .080" with your 800mm string length to get the low E. (your high D string, unless it's a lot longer than the string length of your main strings, will likely need to be close to the gauge of your low 6th string on the neck. Mine often end up being .056", but it depends on the string length. If your low string on the neck is E, then you need something that will sound good at one step lower. If your string length on the main strings is 645mm or around that, the increase in length to 710mm is a bit less than two frets (I'm guessing, but I think that's right). So using the same gauge as your low E/6th string on the neck might work quite well. Does that make sense?)

I'm referring here to bronze wound on steel core.

Gregg's point is interesting. It may work, as long as you are careful to have a good amount of wound string wrapping around the post, to have only the steel core go through the post-hole. However, there are dangers; one is that the core may be more susceptible to breakage; some (brands of)wound strings have softer cores than others, or more fragile ones. Another danger is of the winding coming loose (which is why it's important to have it wrapped around the post).
relevant factors are the kind of tuners you are using, and the kind of strings. Some strings have a specially wrapped end which you can't cut off without endangering the integrity of the string. Some tuners have a post so narrow that enlarging the hole too much will make the post fragile. Generally banjo tuners have a very narrow post, though it is still possible to enlarge (re-drill) the hole in them, if you are careful.

Generally, I think it is best to enlarge the post holes, if necessary, to just fit the largest diameter string that might be used. You will have to excercise some judgement regarding whether the post can tolerate the bigger hole; usually they can.
I say this especially in regards to building a new instrument, particularly one for sale or for a client. I don't thnk it's reasonable to expect all players to want the added hassle of having to remove string winding just to put on a new string, especially when re-drilling is not a big or difficult job for the luthier.

Piano strings are acually made so that the core is what wraps around the tuning pin; they use such enormously fat strings on the basses that that's the only way it could work. But guitar strings aren't really made to do that. It's a good trick to know, when it's needed, but if it can be avoided, why not?

Fred

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Pierre_Lamour

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Reply with quote  #5 
waou

I really love the difference between Fred and Ben answers !!!!

Thanks alot guys!
I have set the string today with light gauge, spending at least one night with but I have to increase gauge !


In any ways here are the first shoot of Eclose:

Full    Body and Treble string attachment

Love,

Pierre


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Frank

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Reply with quote  #6 
Looks nice Pierre! Will we get to see this one in person at the gathering or perhaps at Healdsburg next year?
FredCarlson

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Reply with quote  #7 
Pierre, you are a marvel! Tres bon, monsieur!

Is it a redwood top?

It seems like perhaps your link to the treble harp string attachment actually takes us to the picture of the body. I'd like to see how those treble strings attach.

How does it sound?

Fred

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Gregg

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Reply with quote  #8 
Fred, just a typo. Closeup here:
http://instruments-lamour.ifrance.com/eclose3.jpg
Very nice, Pierre - tell us about the name ("Hatched" in English?)


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Pierre_Lamour

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Reply with quote  #9 
Thanks!

I've juste edited the post with the good link.

Fred, it is your redwood top !
About the sound, well, humm, Eclose is prety young and stringed with light gauge!
The first impressions are: Precision, good projection but somewhat dull for the main and sub strings and sparcly for treble strings.

Frank, I could not be there for HHG nor Healdsburg! I really have to work on my varnish skil and fret job before I could cross the ocean to present some HG. But I will do all my possible to be with you next HHG (2007) witch depend on the French festival succes (next week).

Gregg, "Eclose" mean "Bloom" ! This instrument is the result of what I've received last year during my american trip. I've so much learn about american instrument making philosophy during healdsburg festival and on a personal field (?) by meeting with Marc Dorsa and our dear friend Fred after the festival, that the hiden flower of my heart Blown ;-)

More photos later

Love,

Pierre

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FredCarlson

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Reply with quote  #10 
Thanks Pierre,

the treble string attachment is very nicely done!

Fred

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